0.6 news

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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:18 pm

built and uploaded :wink:

PS: I didn't manage to build it from a windows, I cross-compiled it. It seems there is a bug in TA3D/Yuni configuration interface, TA3D doesn't find Yuni when compiling from MSYS :cry:
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:11 am

About the roadmap, it would be nice to not rely on SDL if possible. It is such a nightmare on OS X and SDL-mixer still does not compile on SnowLeopard which does not reassure me about the future...
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:06 am

hm yes but SDL does some low level work in several areas, it won't be that easy to replace it.

SDL-mixer is temporary, just there until we implement support for OpenAL :P
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:22 pm

We Could not directly use to OpenAL ? I would like to be able to run Ta3D on Snow Leopard one day :-D
(the Leopard binaries does not even work)
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:41 pm

I've read some docs about OpenAL and I am still looking for a convenient way of handling various audio formats (at least WAV, OGG and if possible MP3)
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:21 am

This does not sound really complicated. However I did not do it myself so... :p

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/opena ... esson3.php
http://www.devmaster.net/articles/opena ... esson8.php

"alutLoadWAVFile("wavdata/Gun1.wav", &format, &data, &size, &freq, &loop);
"
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:26 am

For OS X, the main problem is that libsdl uses a lot of deprecated routines (deprecated for a long time...) as far I can see. Contrary to Windows, the deprecated routines on OS X do not have long life expectancy.
But OpenAL could be implemented for the next major version of TA3D
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:02 am

As far as I know alutLoadWAVFile supports WAV, not OGG or MP3 (I haven't tested either so I might be wrong on this)

so let's make a stable 0.6 branch then replace SDL-mixer with OpenAL for 0.7 and other SDL stuffs with Yuni ?
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:42 am

As far as I know alutLoadWAVFile supports WAV, not OGG or MP3
For OGG, it seems that you have to use an external library. I assume it is the same for MP3.
so let's make a stable 0.6 branch then replace SDL-mixer with OpenAL for 0.7 and other SDL stuffs with Yuni ?
Quite ambitious but I like it :) In the same time if you spend time with OpenAL you could directly contribute for yuni.
We will see that as soon as the functional spec is complete.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:36 pm

I've fixed several problems with buid menus, there should not be any problem with mods now (except for the menu size relatively to screen size ...). There is only one thing that might go wrong with it and it's very easy to fix :) (basically it's all about handling large build pics which are read only from download/*.tdf and sidedata.tdf files).

PS: TAAC menus were looking for build pics in some unexpected GAF, this is now supported in r2139. TAAC menus work 8)
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by xpoy » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:32 pm

I love newest version!
Some friends just "yaya" for TA3D's process /:^]

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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:59 pm

Hopefully we'll reach beta stage soon and have a stable 0.6 for Christmas :mrgreen:
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by Doors » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:39 pm

built and uploaded :wink:

PS: I didn't manage to build it from a windows, I cross-compiled it. It seems there is a bug in TA3D/Yuni configuration interface, TA3D doesn't find Yuni when compiling from MSYS :cry:

Broken on R02068 - Yuni config doesn't seem to work on Win32.

Still trying to figure out why.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:31 pm

Indeed there is a problem with MSYS, try to build it without MSYS.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:03 am

I don't see any interest in MSys for Yuni (even for Ta3D) since it is quite useless and not well suited (you have to check if you are in a MSys env, like if it were another platform, which is a nonsense for me - we have enough work) but if it is really needed, we will try to fix it.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by Doors » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:21 pm

milipili wrote:I don't see any interest in MSys for Yuni (even for Ta3D) since it is quite useless and not well suited (you have to check if you are in a MSys env, like if it were another platform, which is a nonsense for me - we have enough work) but if it is really needed, we will try to fix it.
How is it different?

I am just wondering.
I am used to embedded work (Mostly assembler for performance tuning etc.), just getting into the whole linux thing and man oh man am I lost.

I don't think the people who make linux distros have the slightest clue how hard it is for an outsider who isn't part of the culture to get started in it or how much phonetic compression and shorthand the documentation uses or the number of implicit references made.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:10 pm

Doors wrote:I don't think the people who make linux distros have the slightest clue how hard it is for an outsider who isn't part of the culture to get started in it or how much phonetic compression and shorthand the documentation uses or the number of implicit references made.
Actually many of them moved from the windows world and know how hard it is but this isn't only a matter of documentation : I think you didn't learn windows in one day, neither did I with Linux. Looking at how the system works is about learning something huge and a way of thinking too, getting the right reflexes (where to go for help, etc...).
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:23 am

Doors wrote:
milipili wrote:I don't see any interest in MSys for Yuni (even for Ta3D) since it is quite useless and not well suited (you have to check if you are in a MSys env, like if it were another platform, which is a nonsense for me - we have enough work) but if it is really needed, we will try to fix it.
How is it different?
You (your code) may believe that you are on a Unix which is obviously not true. So you have to make some specific fixes.

Doors wrote:I am just wondering.
I am used to embedded work (Mostly assembler for performance tuning etc.), just getting into the whole linux thing and man oh man am I lost.

I don't think the people who make linux distros have the slightest clue how hard it is for an outsider who isn't part of the culture to get started in it or how much phonetic compression and shorthand the documentation uses or the number of implicit references made.
Agreed with zuzuf. For working on several OSes for now several years I can even say that it is easier to work on Linux (about the documentation, applications, tools...). But obviously you have to know how it works. For my part it is like a sport car. It is far more difficult to drive (that requires more skills) but it is really more pleasant, and at the end easier to use because you can adapt it as you like. It is two different tools, with not the same goals.
I would prefer OS X, which combines the best from the two worlds, a nice and a simple UI for standard uses, and unix tools for advanced users.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by xpoy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:12 pm

/:^]
linux had a perfect support.
But for casual users, the linux need too much prepare.
And the PC isn't design for usually users(like developers) but for some users who used PC like casual user. In this case linux get a big momentum "diffcultly to use/ not compulsory"

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Re: 0.6 news

Post by zuzuf » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:24 pm

It depends on the distribution. Some like Mandriva, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu are user friendly but I would not recommend Fedora, Debian, Arch Linux (except in the form of Chakra) or Gentoo for casual users.
The preinstalled Ubuntu you get with some Dell machines is nice for such users, it's just a shame there are so few vendors proposing it.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by xpoy » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:51 am

yes but it's the point.
casual users maybe stop when they found they should know what's the diffrent of the linuxs, though this is so simple.
There are mass things in linux was so. /:^[
And ppl always enjoy linux after they really start use, but most of big momentum "diffcultly to use/ not compulsory" come from ppl who ever didn't saw linux GUI.

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Re: 0.6 news

Post by Doors » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:26 am

xpoy wrote:yes but it's the point.
casual users maybe stop when they found they should know what's the diffrent of the linuxs, though this is so simple.
There are mass things in linux was so. /:^[
And ppl always enjoy linux after they really start use, but most of big momentum "diffcultly to use/ not compulsory" come from ppl who ever didn't saw linux GUI.
All I'm looking for is a simple installation.
The next time a distro tells me I have to make a user account or can't login as root from here I'm going to take a magnifying glass to the disk I burned and burn it some more if doesn't tell me why i'm not allowed access to my own machine.

I have to learn linux, the embedded world is switching and not much assembler is needed now with how powerful embedded processors are getting.
I have to admit I made the jump to dos about 15 minutes after I saw demoed the first time. (The memory available was incredible at the time.)
Having devices addressable by a string was a dream come true, yet retaining the ability to go ahead and use the hardware if you needed. It let us setup ports with custom code the use them through standard calls, talk about time savings, then we got directories.

My biggest complaint about linux is the steep learning curve with no ramp, windows is stupid and separates you from the machine, but at least has a help section that is designed for those who don't already know everything or much of anything.

Is there a distro that just gives you a command line with a working compiler?
I kind of like pclinuxos but it adds grub without telling you it won't ask to write before installing, but no compiler included and no idea how to add it yet.

By the way zuzuf, congrads on including the needed libraries in the source tree, it makes your program feature creep resistant when the libraries update.
Over the years the fastest way I have ever found to break something is for some dolt in another department or part the project to fix a 'glitch' in some library without saying a thing to anyone.
That's why we have our two dependency rule, we don't allow more than two layers of dependencies unless it is critical that we do something a particular way. Parent libraries are great. Grandparent libraries are fine. Great grandparent requires a full meeting to approve. It also makes library version dependence testing a breeze, change out the section of tree, recompile.

If works {yay!} else Version_dependent_code {fix}
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:05 am

Doors wrote: Is there a distro that just gives you a command line with a working compiler?
I kind of like pclinuxos but it adds grub without telling you it won't ask to write before installing, but no compiler included and no idea how to add it yet.
I think that a distro like ubuntu (or Mandriva perhaps I did not use it for a while) with a Add/Remove softwares should be fine. If that still does not suit to your needs, you should consider OS X instead. It is not propaganda but I think it is the best answer to your concerns.
Doors wrote: By the way zuzuf, congrads on including the needed libraries in the source tree, it makes your program feature creep resistant when the libraries update.
But weak against security updates. Even if you don't care it is not a solution since the libraries always have dependencies (that fixes the issue of major updates - there is a difference between a minor and a major version). Developers are not package maintainers and nowadays we can not develop a "real" application in our garage.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by Doors » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:25 pm

milipili wrote:
Doors wrote: Is there a distro that just gives you a command line with a working compiler?
I kind of like pclinuxos but it adds grub without telling you it won't ask to write before installing, but no compiler included and no idea how to add it yet.
I think that a distro like ubuntu (or Mandriva perhaps I did not use it for a while) with a Add/Remove softwares should be fine. If that still does not suit to your needs, you should consider OS X instead. It is not propaganda but I think it is the best answer to your concerns.
I don't actually need a gui, I only use one for web browsing, e-mail, the occasional frag fest and I have my stupid windows box for those.
I do my real work with an xtree clone called ztree. Though the task switching is wonderful, alt tab is my friend.
Gui's are just not part of how I think, or how I organize. I think windows is allergic to having a monospace font, I like my text in columns.

milipili wrote:
Doors wrote: By the way zuzuf, congrads on including the needed libraries in the source tree, it makes your program feature creep resistant when the libraries update.
But weak against security updates. Even if you don't care it is not a solution since the libraries always have dependencies (that fixes the issue of major updates - there is a difference between a minor and a major version). Developers are not package maintainers and nowadays we can not develop a "real" application in our garage.
I learned to program where speed counted. To many layers kills speed. I am used to tricks of opcode execution order to save a few cycles.
This layered dependency stuff is what lead one of our competitors to actually release embedded controlware with dead code in it.

I feel like a wastrel with C/C++memory usage, the compilers and linkers are adaptable but highly complex.
It is like swimming in an ocean of information yet no one seems to able to tell me why unix/linux is done the way it is? What is the point, the logic?

The complexity of the gui is a big step up from turbo or free vision, i'm so lost in it I can't tell which way is up.

I am still trying to figure out how to get yuni config to work on msys.
Mind if I comment around yuni config for mingw w/msys for the working dumps I put up, until I can figure out how to make them work together that is?

Msys w/mingw is so far the only option I have. I am not going the cygwin route again until I can find a way to keep multiple copies of it like I can mingw.
I am slowly finding the structure of cygwin, but no logic to my eyes.
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by milipili » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:36 pm

Doors wrote: I don't actually need a gui, I only use one for web browsing, e-mail, the occasional frag fest and I have my stupid windows box for those.
I do my real work with an xtree clone called ztree. Though the task switching is wonderful, alt tab is my friend.
Gui's are just not part of how I think, or how I organize. I think windows is allergic to having a monospace font, I like my text in columns.
ztree oO ? Respect :) But I easily understand your way of thinking and indeed, you should completely switch to an "unix like" operating system. A terminal in a framebuffer or as a fullscreen window remains a terminal. And a "user-friendly" linux distro may help you to get rid of the most common issues, hard to solve even for an expert. After that, you can always use private messages (or email) for requesting some help.
Doors wrote:I learned to program where speed counted. To many layers kills speed. I am used to tricks of opcode execution order to save a few cycles.
This layered dependency stuff is what lead one of our competitors to actually release embedded controlware with dead code in it.

I feel like a wastrel with C/C++memory usage, the compilers and linkers are adaptable but highly complex.
It is like swimming in an ocean of information yet no one seems to able to tell me why unix/linux is done the way it is? What is the point, the logic?

The complexity of the gui is a big step up from turbo or free vision, i'm so lost in it I can't tell which way is up.
Quite simple. You don't really want to spend 3 days on recreating a button to trigger a simple event. You would prefer to spend it on the event itself, which is the most important for your app.
Most of the time, you only consider big numbers in physics and you don't care about insignificant values, because at the end it won't really change your results. It is the same here.
However, you're completely right about the fact that some libraries offer you several layers for nothing. But it is often the case for multi-platform libraries, where the complexity is bigger. And again, you prefer to use it instead of reinventing the wheel (and to fix a lot of bugs..) and to make something worst.
Another reason is that libraries might not suit to your needs entirely.
The last reason is that most people does not really know how to make their code more efficient (and they don't care actually).

Doors wrote:I am still trying to figure out how to get yuni config to work on msys.
Mind if I comment around yuni config for mingw w/msys for the working dumps I put up, until I can figure out how to make them work together that is?

Msys w/mingw is so far the only option I have. I am not going the cygwin route again until I can find a way to keep multiple copies of it like I can mingw.
I am slowly finding the structure of cygwin, but no logic to my eyes.
Yuni seems to compile fine with MSys, except when linking. ar.exe is not able to open /c/<path>/bin/static/libyuni-core-static.a in the first place. Note that you have to use "MSYS Makefiles" as generator for CMake.
You can forget Cygwin which is such a pain to use. The best option you have here is to use (temporary at least) the Windows command line (cmd.exe). Assuming you already have CMake and mingw binaries in your $PATH, it will work :

Code: Select all

# cd <path to ta3d sources>\trunk\src
# del CMakeCache.txt
# cmake . -G "MinGW Makefiles" -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=debug
# mingw32-make clean all
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Re: 0.6 news

Post by xpoy » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:31 pm

win Cmd not just a shell, that was a subsystem, you can treat that as posix in window's support.
MSYS meet a lot problem when path set isn't enough, so I always forget MSYS instead just used there GUI wapper, that GUI always had spec support for some reason.

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