TA3D on EEE PC 701 :)
- zuzuf
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TA3D on EEE PC 701 :)
It works !!
I built it on the original OS (Xandros, Debian based Linux distro). I built it without speed optimization (it was already very long to build ...). The 3DMEditor runs fine, but 800x600 is a bit above EEE PC's 800x480 LCD .
It runs at 2 fps but it runs !! Also I noticed we can remove several features drawn on screen that slow down the game on such a machine:
_sky (lots of geometry for nothing, remember Intel GMA 900 doesn't have any T&L or vertex program/shader capability, all geometry is computed on the CPU which is a 900MHz celeron here )
_map geometry has lots of details ... too much for such a small screen, I'll add an option to remove some useless geometry.
_sprite features are converted to 3D model when possible which increases the number of triangles to draw
_3DM HD models have lots of polygons too
Despite the speed at which the gfx engine runs, the simulation engine runs at full speed (1x) and the AI easily wins against a human player who has such a painfully slow interface to fight
PS: I ran those tests with default configuration, using only totala1.hpi and totala2.hpi, with CC data files or rev31.gp3 it loads too much data and the 512MB of RAM aren't enough to load the game.
I built it on the original OS (Xandros, Debian based Linux distro). I built it without speed optimization (it was already very long to build ...). The 3DMEditor runs fine, but 800x600 is a bit above EEE PC's 800x480 LCD .
It runs at 2 fps but it runs !! Also I noticed we can remove several features drawn on screen that slow down the game on such a machine:
_sky (lots of geometry for nothing, remember Intel GMA 900 doesn't have any T&L or vertex program/shader capability, all geometry is computed on the CPU which is a 900MHz celeron here )
_map geometry has lots of details ... too much for such a small screen, I'll add an option to remove some useless geometry.
_sprite features are converted to 3D model when possible which increases the number of triangles to draw
_3DM HD models have lots of polygons too
Despite the speed at which the gfx engine runs, the simulation engine runs at full speed (1x) and the AI easily wins against a human player who has such a painfully slow interface to fight
PS: I ran those tests with default configuration, using only totala1.hpi and totala2.hpi, with CC data files or rev31.gp3 it loads too much data and the 512MB of RAM aren't enough to load the game.
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I find Ta3D slow on my computer too (and my PC), so I can easily imagine on a EePCIt runs at 2 fps
You're kidding ya ?the 512MB of RAM aren't enough to load the game.
Hum... Can you identify a process in particular or it is the game in general that is a bit too memory-hungry ?
Damien Gerard
Ta3d & Yuni Developer
Ta3d & Yuni Developer
- zuzuf
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In fact Intel's GMA chip doesn't have its own memory so all texture memory is shared RAM ... so the culpit here is the X server
I am sure I can optimize things to run at a descent speed, for example we don't need to render the map each frame if the camera doesn't move, we can just save the result in a buffer and copy it back if the camera hasn't moved, that way we'll save lots of geometry calculations (which is the weakness of GMA chips)
I am sure I can optimize things to run at a descent speed, for example we don't need to render the map each frame if the camera doesn't move, we can just save the result in a buffer and copy it back if the camera hasn't moved, that way we'll save lots of geometry calculations (which is the weakness of GMA chips)
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- zuzuf
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I doubt we can run it on an iPhone
Balthazar: running TA3D on low-end hardware implies pushing the engine above its limits by optimizing it as mush as possible which will benefit normal PCs
Imagine an engine capable of running a war on a high scale battlefield with lots of details ... allowing you to play RTS, FPS, etc... it's just a question of scripting and optimization
Balthazar: running TA3D on low-end hardware implies pushing the engine above its limits by optimizing it as mush as possible which will benefit normal PCs
Imagine an engine capable of running a war on a high scale battlefield with lots of details ... allowing you to play RTS, FPS, etc... it's just a question of scripting and optimization
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I vote for optimization, too. For theses reasons :
- Real coders LOVE optimize ;
- We want to make units with more polys than in OTA ;
- We want to use better, bigger textures ;
- We want to have LOT of units. It's not DoW or Starcraft, here ! We are adults !
- We want to have bigger maps ;
- With a lot of sides simultaneously ;
- Real coders LOVE optimize ;
- We want to make units with more polys than in OTA ;
- We want to use better, bigger textures ;
- We want to have LOT of units. It's not DoW or Starcraft, here ! We are adults !
- We want to have bigger maps ;
- With a lot of sides simultaneously ;
- zuzuf
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the problem is that it's dynamic ... whereas TA maps are prerendered at an angle ... so we have to do some reverse projection in order to get the correct cooridnates in space. This is done on the geometry itself not on the height map ! (it increases quality because it doesn't lose details that way)
So we cannot change map geometry dynamically without having to do extra calculations on those height maps and displacement calculations etc...
Also we cannot change the texture easily which is problematic when you want to create a nice crater ... Also simulating fluid over the map is very slow, if we can optimize that by doing better choices on the data structures we use it won't be too much
So we cannot change map geometry dynamically without having to do extra calculations on those height maps and displacement calculations etc...
Also we cannot change the texture easily which is problematic when you want to create a nice crater ... Also simulating fluid over the map is very slow, if we can optimize that by doing better choices on the data structures we use it won't be too much
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- zuzuf
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I already played Perimeter, but we cannot do the same for TA3D because :
1) it would be too slow if it runs at Perimeter's speed
2) maps are too big to have such a high level of geometric details
but it's obvious that the map should be a grid rendered using some kind of displacement mapping like in Perimeter. But what isn't obivous at all is the way to store data in memory to implement fluid simulation on top of that ... Also we can use the classical multi-resolution textures technique which consists of several textures rendered at different scales, some used only to tell a fragment program which type of material we have, etc ...
For now I am only sure of one thing : fluid simulation must not be done on a grid with the same resolution as the map, otherwise it'll be awfully slow. If possible we should make that simulation run on the GPU it'll be much faster !
1) it would be too slow if it runs at Perimeter's speed
2) maps are too big to have such a high level of geometric details
but it's obvious that the map should be a grid rendered using some kind of displacement mapping like in Perimeter. But what isn't obivous at all is the way to store data in memory to implement fluid simulation on top of that ... Also we can use the classical multi-resolution textures technique which consists of several textures rendered at different scales, some used only to tell a fragment program which type of material we have, etc ...
For now I am only sure of one thing : fluid simulation must not be done on a grid with the same resolution as the map, otherwise it'll be awfully slow. If possible we should make that simulation run on the GPU it'll be much faster !
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Well, adding terrain deformation and flooding is not the top priority for now. And maybe not the priority at all, so where will be much time to think about it in the future
And if anyone interested - link to the new screenshots from the Perimetr 2
http://perimeter2.kdlab.com/
And if anyone interested - link to the new screenshots from the Perimetr 2
http://perimeter2.kdlab.com/
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it would be too slow because you want to play on maps whose scale has nothing in common with Perimeter maps , remember tactical view is a very convenient feature .
Of course adding a new map format will require coding a new renderer for it, as well as alternative functions for everything ...
And again, fluid simulation is very power demanding, I can send you a test program if you want
Of course adding a new map format will require coding a new renderer for it, as well as alternative functions for everything ...
And again, fluid simulation is very power demanding, I can send you a test program if you want
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Populous use triangles for ground in very simple fashion : When you click on a vertex, you can change the heigh of the vertex. Since a vertex is always part of some triangles, the angle of theses triangles change also.
Hell, this game is from 1988, but they have done a version for Nitendo DS this year !!! No, really !
Pictures here :
http://populousrevolution.strategyplane ... p?album=22
Look here, too (you can see the evolution in the game Powermonger : Simple to make good mountains, with this system, as you can see) :
http://www.viridiangames.com/blog/categ ... our-games/
Hell, this game is from 1988, but they have done a version for Nitendo DS this year !!! No, really !
Pictures here :
http://populousrevolution.strategyplane ... p?album=22
Look here, too (you can see the evolution in the game Powermonger : Simple to make good mountains, with this system, as you can see) :
http://www.viridiangames.com/blog/categ ... our-games/
- zuzuf
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doing displacement mapping on a grid is the classic geometry used to do that, but it doesn't tell us how it is stored in memory and here we're using OpenGL we should take that into account in order to optimize things a bit (currently it's not the case with TA's maps which are optimized for software rendering)
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- zuzuf
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I ran a new test on my EEE PC using an optimized build (-O3 -march=i686) and it runs at 13 fps OO !! And I could even run the simulation at 3X !!!
This is without engine optimizations, so I really think it could run smoothly with a less detailed map and without sky and with a cache to prevent rendering the map from the same point of view every frame
This is without engine optimizations, so I really think it could run smoothly with a less detailed map and without sky and with a cache to prevent rendering the map from the same point of view every frame
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